M 240 bummer

Discussion in 'Leica M Camera Forum' started by VINCETAN, Jun 19, 2014.

  1. VINCETAN

    VINCETAN Leica Place Top Veteran

    704
    Aug 19, 2013
  2. Brian

    Brian Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Apr 3, 2013
    Did you buy it new? Return it.

    Digital cameras -like any digital device- have "high infant mortality rates" compared with mechanical cameras. So when you get one that works well out of the box, and for the next few weeks- keep it. I've got one that is over 20 years old and has 3 bad pixels out of 1.6million. that was a lot of pixels 20 years ago.
     
  3. VINCETAN

    VINCETAN Leica Place Top Veteran

    704
    Aug 19, 2013
    This one is one of those QM2 camera. I think the store got this but never really fired it up. Actually, it is also the 2nd M 240 I got that have this problem. The first one ended up getting a new sensor from Leica NJ. This one however, since I just got it literally today, I have contacted the store I got it from and is asking for either an exchange or returning this.
     
  4. Brian

    Brian Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Apr 3, 2013
    Either you are unlucky, Leica is not checking cameras as close as they should- or they are using high flying jets that transport between solar flare-ups...

    You think there would be a "self-test" mode that quickly checks for dead lines in the image. Should not happen when the customer gets the camera home.
     
  5. raid

    raid Leica Place All-Pro

    Apr 12, 2013
    USA
    Raid
    My M9 lost the right half of its sensor a few days ago.
     
  6. brusby

    brusby Leica Place Regular Subscribing Member

    96
    Mar 1, 2014
    Sorry to hear that.

    I wonder where the "refurbs" are done and if they ship by air from Leica.

    Maybe they should be wrapped in lead foil for air transport.
     
  7. carlb

    carlb Leica Place Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    689
    May 1, 2013
    Ugh!
     
  8. VINCETAN

    VINCETAN Leica Place Top Veteran

    704
    Aug 19, 2013
    I guess if you are like me who goes thru quite a few of these camera, you are bound to get more with issues. Luckily, the dealer is in Boston and I just happen to have plan of visiting Boston this weekend with the family so I will make a quick stop to return this. Oh well.
     
  9. VINCETAN

    VINCETAN Leica Place Top Veteran

    704
    Aug 19, 2013
    I have a feeling that Leica ship all their camera by air from Germany to NJ. I work in Operations and if I have expensive product that are not too big and heavy coming in from overseas, and if I am in constant back order, the goal is to turn the cash quickly so air shipment is a good option. Cost of goods to transport ratio is very low when you have a product like an M camera.

    I have also traveled on the plane with an M 240 and did not have that issue. I guess it is just luck of the draw.
     
  10. Duane Pandorf

    Duane Pandorf Leica Place Regular

    195
    Mar 30, 2013
    Well as to air shipment/travel I'm your guinea pig. As a pilot who always has his M-E kit with him all the time and usually above 41,000' I'm quite aware of the radiation sensor issue. I've had my sensor replaced once already due to a bad array. Only seen when shooting low light high ISO and shadow detail increased.

    I have the same problem right now too but I'm not sending the camera in until later this year so my one year warranty extension goes out to year 3. I figure its part of life and living with the tech challenges. Just think if I were traveling with film and having to continuously deal with TSA and airport scanners. I sometimes see 3-4 of those in a week or more.
     
  11. brusby

    brusby Leica Place Regular Subscribing Member

    96
    Mar 1, 2014
    I just did a quick Google search on the issue of whether exposure to gamma radiation during high altitude flights increases failure rates of digital camera sensors. Didn't spend a lot of time on it, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus. A lot of opinions on both sides, but nothing backed up by any real scientific testing or experience. Am I missing something?
     
  12. Brian

    Brian Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Apr 3, 2013
    The Effects of Gamma Rays on Solid State devices is well-known and documented. Exposure to Gamma Rays on high-flying aircraft is higher than surface level. I put the "During Solar Flares" remark in my "tongue-in-cheek" remark regarding an obvious fault in the CMOS array that should have been caught when the camera was inspected. Flying during a Solar Flare would dramatically increase the chances of being hit. As would placing the device in a vacuum chamber and bombarding it with X-Rays, but that was the late 70s for me.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=ZZ...EwAQ#v=onepage&q=ccd damage gamma ray&f=false
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. brusby

    brusby Leica Place Regular Subscribing Member

    96
    Mar 1, 2014
    Great article with lots of interesting and very detailed info. Love it, thanks Brian!

    But, I'm still missing the bottom line -- what are the real risks we'd be exposing our cameras to by repeated flights.

    Maybe it's buried in the data and I just haven't studied it closely enough, but I don't see anything on the actual increased probability of damage as a function of the elevations commonly encountered in commercial airplane flights and how extensive that damage is likely to be.

    It's pretty well documented that the CCD can be harmed by various types of radiation, but I'd like to know what the increased risk of damage is as a function of altitude. If the probability increases only some very small amount, for example in the range of 0.00000001% or less per thousand feet of elevation, there might not be much cause for concern. OTOH, if there's one chance in ten or even one in a thousand damage might occur on any particular flight, the impact is much more real.

    Also, how many pixels, among the millions on a silicon chip, would typically be harmed? The literature seems to suggest the most likely problem is gamma radiation, as opposed to more serious nuclear events (protons and neutrons), and that gamma rays would cause a much less catastrophic failure than a nuclear impact, typically just one pixel. If that's what happens, and only one or just a few pixels become inoperative, would it be possible for the dead pixels to be remapped or is the failure mode such that the entire CCD needs to be trashed?

    Finally, does it matter if the chip has power applied to it or not when the impact occurs? Is it equally susceptible to damage either way? The literature indicates that the damage results from current spikes which are produced on the chip following impact by the radiation. But the general context in the article you cited was spacecraft with their CCDs in an active circuit at the time of impact. I'm just wondering if there is a different response if the device is turned off, as would probably be the case with most consumer cameras stored in luggage on commercial flights.

    Anyway, sorry for the long and rambling reply. I'm just curious about this topic and hoping more people will chime in with answers.
     
  14. Brian

    Brian Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Apr 3, 2013
    The chip does not have to be powered up, if a pixel does become damaged- it can be mapped out (interpolated over).

    I'll try to find something on damage at altitude. It's not a big concern, and is not likely what happened to Raid's camera.
     
  15. VINCETAN

    VINCETAN Leica Place Top Veteran

    704
    Aug 19, 2013
    So last week, I returned the camera to the store that I got it from. The camera that I returned was in mint condition but came with a 1 year demo warranty from Leica. The replacement camera that i got yesterday was basically a brand new camera. It even came with a 2 years warranty card.

    Not bad at all. Total turnaround time is 1 week. I am a happy camper.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  16. carlb

    carlb Leica Place Top Veteran Subscribing Member

    689
    May 1, 2013
    Great news, Vince!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. asiafish

    asiafish Leica Place All-Pro

    Aug 9, 2013
    Bakersfield, CA
    Andrew
    Fantastic.