New here with a question

Discussion in 'Welcomes and Introductions' started by Ricoh, Sep 8, 2015.

  1. Ricoh

    Ricoh Leica Place Regular

    91
    Sep 8, 2015
    UK
    Steve
    I'm a U4/3 user and contribute to the sister site to this with the same user name.

    I have a 'scratch' that I really need to do something about. My subconscious is telling me to get a Leica because life is not a dress rehearsal - when you're gone you're gone. However, before I attend to the 'scratch', I have questions to do with handling, rangefinder compared to mirrorless U4/3: speed of use, especially for the street, cos that's what I do 90% + of the time, and questions about choice of lenses (not the choice of focal length, because that's a personal choice, I understand, but looking for advice on the choice available at different focal lengths in terms of speed/value quotient, eg 50mm f2.0 and f1.4 and similarly with the 35mm lens).

    Do I need to start a new thread to ask, or could someone reading this who is both a Mirrorless and rangefinder user possibly say something regarding use of the M240 compared to U4/3. I fully expect the FF to provide a huge leap in quality, but am I expecting too much?
     
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  2. Brian

    Brian Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Apr 3, 2013
    I bought the Olympus EP2 when it first came out, almost 6 years ago. I've used Rangefinder cameras "forever", and the Digital Leicas for almost 6 years. I did not buy an M240, have the M8, M9, and M Monochrom.

    You have 80 years of lenses available in Leica mount, of course they can be used on the u43 with an adapter.

    In general: the response time between hitting the release and getting the shot is faster with the Leica. Being able to use the viewfinder and see outside of the framelines is also a great advantage that many Mirrorless and SLR users underestimate. I also have a Nikon Df and have used SLR's "Forever- 1 year".

    If you have used Film rangefinders, you will have a good idea of what to expect. For a number of people picking up a Leica RF for the first time, I've suggested the M8 as the price is between $1000 and $1500. The M9 prices have also dropped. The M240: expect a new camera in the Leica lineup within a year, which will bring M240 prices down. Some M240 sellers are anticipating a new camera, and are selling theirs at good prices. The M240 uses the EVF-2, so expect the new model to use a higher-resolution EVF.

    For lens suggestions: pick a price range. You cannot go wrong with a 50/1.4 Aspheric Summilux. A 50/1.5 Aspheric Nokton will deliver close results, at 10% of the cost.

    https://www.leicaplace.com/forums/12/

    https://www.leicaplace.com/forums/13/

    Yesterday both lenses taken with me were from the 1930s. Also pick a rendering of a lens that you like. The 50/1.5 C-Sonnar is amazing. My most used "modern" Wide-Angle would be the 35/1.7 Ultron, also an Aspheric lens.

    And... Welcome to Leicaplace!
     
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  3. Mijo

    Mijo Leica Place Veteran

    272
    Apr 11, 2013
    San Francisco
    I went from using m4/3 for several years to using only rangefinders, I sold off the last of my m4/3 gear early this year. While I only recently started shooting more street, I can appreciate the advantages rangefinders have in terms of this genre. One area, IMHO, where rangefinders really shine in comparison to m4/3 is zone focusing. I had several m4/3 lens with scales on the lens barrel (i.e. CV 17, Oly 12, Oly 17) and never found them to be that accurate when it comes to zone focusing. With Leica lenses, I've found them to be extremely accurate in terms of zone focusing with the DOF scale. For street, I find zone focusing on a rangefinder to be quicker than using auto focus on m4/3 (but my last body was a EM-5 mkI).

    In terms of Leica lenses, if your shooting mainly street I would recommend the summicrons over summiluxes. If you compare the DOF scales between crons and luxes of the same FL, the crons have a deeper DOF at the any of the same apertures (that's been my observation any way). For my style of shooting, I prefer a deeper depth of field and only shoot wide open when I need the more light. I started out with luxes for my 35 and 50mm FL, which is overkill for my needs and I would have preferred the extra DOF and compact size of the crons. If your planning to drive into Leicas with a more modern body (i.e. 240) you might not need the extra stop the luxes provide.
     
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  4. Ricoh

    Ricoh Leica Place Regular

    91
    Sep 8, 2015
    UK
    Steve
    Thanks Brian and Mijo.

    Brian,
    In the UK, there's currently a £500 ($750 approx) discount on the M240 until the end of September, which could be promotional, but it could be in anticipation of a new model as suggested.

    I'm a bit currious why anyone would want use an electronic viewfinder on a beautiful range finder camera, however from what I've read (and there's a mountain to read to become conversant) in the range finder mode it seems exposure is taken off the shutter curtain, whereas in live view (and that's where the EVF comes in I suppose) exposure is taken from the sensor and is said to be more accurate compared to 'curtain' exposure - but I'm new to Leica concepts and could easily be wrong.

    Mijo,
    I've tried zone focusing on m4/3 and I dispair really as I find it close to useless with a fly by wire manual focus lens. However, from what you've said, it seems that zone focusing is one of the big benefit of the RF Leica and it's something I'm sure I would gel with almost immediately. I like the idea of setting aperture and DoF and getting on with the main part of the task, that being to compose the shot.
    Thanks too for the heads up on the crons and luxes (I love this Leica way of talking) and definitely maximum Dof would win it for me. With this knowledge I can begin to scope a system spec and cost it up. Like you, the m4/3 kit will go, for me to parly fund the Leica dream.

    I expect to see an improvement in image quality compared to m4/3 with less noise and better dynamic range. Is that a reasonable expectation?

    Has anyone any thoughts on the reliability of the M240, based on what they've read, or from personal experience?
     
  5. Brian

    Brian Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Apr 3, 2013
    The M240 offered EVF for those using adapted lenses, such as from the Leica R Series.

    The discount on the M240 is something to consider; I suspect it is in anticipation of the new model.

    I've never had an issue with the off the curtain metering of the M9, M Monochrom, and M8. Very straightforward with exposure compensation available.
     
  6. Ricoh

    Ricoh Leica Place Regular

    91
    Sep 8, 2015
    UK
    Steve
    Thanks Brian, that's helpful. I'm slowly getting up to speed, there's lots to learn, lots to read.

    I believe the M-P 240 is an update to the M-240, and in the UK is about £700 ($1000 approx) extra. Is it worth it, I ask myself. As far as can see the improvements are minimal, a 2GB buffer instead of 1 GB, a sapphire glass LCD and the removal of the red dot. Doesn't seem worth it to me unless I'm missing something. As an example I'm not sure whether there's an improvement to the processing engine.
     
  7. Brian

    Brian Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Apr 3, 2013
    I think you have it covered- Leica did the same with the M9 as the M9P. I put a $20 Giotto cover glass over my M9 and M8, the M Monochrom came with the Sapphire glass. It's nice, but not a consideration for me. I had a Giotto screen ready for it, did not realize the sapphire glass was on it.
     
  8. Ricoh

    Ricoh Leica Place Regular

    91
    Sep 8, 2015
    UK
    Steve
    Thanks Brian.
     
  9. VINCETAN

    VINCETAN Leica Place Top Veteran

    708
    Aug 19, 2013
    EVF can be very handy especially when you are using adapted lens. The problem with the EVF of the M/MP 240 is that it is based on a very old EVF. Quality is not good. Personally, I ended up not using many of the other non-RF coupled lens because of that. It also can be slower. I do like the EVF of the new Q.
     
  10. Ricoh

    Ricoh Leica Place Regular

    91
    Sep 8, 2015
    UK
    Steve
    I'm led to understand it's based on the Olympus VF-2, possibly rebadged. As a current m4/3 user I would be more inclined to use the range finder rather than look at an electronic image. Plus as Brian said earlier, you can see outside the frame lines which sounds helpful for compositional choices.
     
  11. Christilou

    Christilou Leica Place Veteran

    365
    Apr 5, 2013
    I rely on the VF-2 Olympus quite a lot. It's very useful for composing with wider angle lenses like the Zeiss 25mm 2.8.
     
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  12. Mijo

    Mijo Leica Place Veteran

    272
    Apr 11, 2013
    San Francisco
    Your question is very subjective but I feel the "P" versions are worth the extra money. I prefer the missing red dot and lack of branding and am willing to spend the extra money for that alone. The sapphire screen and added buffer are just icing on the cake, IMO. I've also noticed that "P" versions of M bodies tend to fetch more on the second hand market.

    If your okay with used equipment and you can hold out for it, I would recommend waiting until the rumored announcement at the end of the year. If a successor to the 240 is announced at the end of the year, used 240's should drop in price. I'm waiting for that announcement myself...
     
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  13. uhoh7

    uhoh7 Leica Place Regular

    163
    Oct 14, 2014
    "I fully expect the FF to provide a huge leap in quality, but am I expecting too much?"

    Basically you are buying a huge leap in potential. Some images will be similar to 4/3, at least on your computer, but others will stun you.
     
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  14. Ricoh

    Ricoh Leica Place Regular

    91
    Sep 8, 2015
    UK
    Steve
    One of the off putting things, possibly the only thing, is the desirability of the product to thieves; I've read that some users apply black insulating tape to tone down the advertisement. But the lens still 'says' Leica, albeit smaller.

    Currently I can get £500 (approx $750) reduction on either the M or M-P due to Leica having a 'summer' offer, but it ends on the 30th September. I'm off to a dealer at the end of the week to have a look and play, it's so tempting!
     
  15. VINCETAN

    VINCETAN Leica Place Top Veteran

    708
    Aug 19, 2013
    The market for most of the Leica is so weak right now with the exception of Q, I have a feeling that the price will stay low for a while.
     
  16. Christilou

    Christilou Leica Place Veteran

    365
    Apr 5, 2013
    Mine's two years old and I just had an offer from a dealer for £2750..... Of course they would add on another £1000 and sell it to you:(
     
  17. Ricoh

    Ricoh Leica Place Regular

    91
    Sep 8, 2015
    UK
    Steve
    Was that to buy it outright, or in part exchange? It being an M240, I presume.

    And if you don't mind me asking, did the dealer contact you or were you considering a replacement?

    [Dealer would add 20% vat, plus £500 for himself - he has to offer a warranty. So £1000 mark up isn't far off, the only thing though, the M240 can be purchased new for £3999 !]
     
  18. Ricoh

    Ricoh Leica Place Regular

    91
    Sep 8, 2015
    UK
    Steve
    I wonder why the market is suppressed, I thought it was every photographers dream to own, and more importantly, use a Leica.
    Rumours abound about M4/3 with reasonably accurate forecasts. What about Leica, do the 'jungle drums' say anything about the new model and release date? What about year-end for press release and Q1 2016 for product availability - now that's a rumour.
    I guess if it's true about a replacement, it will be more than just a facelift as the M-P 240 has been out for a year or more.
     
  19. Brian

    Brian Super Moderator Subscribing Member

    Apr 3, 2013
    M9 prices are at the $3000 mark, some below that. The M9P goes for a few hundred more. The M240 prices are down as it is 3 years old and Leica has been bringing out new Digital M cameras every 3 years.

    "Nothing gets older faster than Digital" and "Digital cameras work as well as they ever did, often better when first introduced". I spent the last year really exploring the M8, Infrared capability and uncompressed Raw mode. Between it, and the M9 and M Monochrom- I am set for at least 3 more years. But- many people will be buying the new camera, and selling off the older ones. If you do not mind buying a used camera, ir means getting a $7000 camera for 50% off.
     
  20. Ricoh

    Ricoh Leica Place Regular

    91
    Sep 8, 2015
    UK
    Steve
    I've bought quite a lot of 2nd hand M4/3 stuff in the past, mainly lenses but I did buy a camera as well, so I've got an open mind to second or even third hand equipment. In terms of Leica, if backed by a dealer with limited warranty, no problem for me.
    So based on the product churning cycle, the new Leica should be released next year - I could wait I suppose and pick up a 2nd hand M or MP at a discount. That's food for thought.